Why Visier

Totally Rewarding Chats | Ep. 03: Focusing on Value, Impact, and Outcome With People Analytics

On this episode of Totally Rewarding Chats, we speak with Teri Zipper about the importance of aligning people analytics with business goals, the need to focus on financial wellness, and more.

Teri Zipper joins us on the Totally Rewarding Chats series. Watch now.

Tying people analytics to business goals is critical

In this episode, Sean and Teri discuss evolving challenges companies face, from the need for innovative retention approaches to balancing short-term mental wellness and long-term financial wellness. They discuss the importance of aligning people analytics with business goals, and how HR professionals can use storytelling as a method to effectively demonstrate the value, impact, and outcomes of HR strategies on business outcomes.

[VIDEO] Totally Rewarding Chats 3

I'd like to see is better alignment and better partnership at the leadership level. Like how do we own these challenges from an HR perspective and, you know, help the business solve them? Because, you know, the people are a significant part of the business. And without people, and without the right people, we can't deliver on the promises the business is making.

-Teri Zipper

In this episode:

More on the business impact of people analytics

Episode transcript:

Sean Luitjens (00:00:08 -> 00:00:24)

All right. Good day everyone. This is our third installment of kind of interview the influencer. I'm Sean Luitjens, General Manager of Total Rewards at Visier, and I am lucky enough to have the genius that is Teri Zipper today from Sapient. How are you Teri?

Terri Zipper (00:00:24 -> 00:00:26)

I'm great. How are you Sean?

Sean Luitjens (00:00:26 -> 00:00:49)

I'm good. So thanks for joining us. Um, I'm gonna try to flip things around. I know you've been doing your podcast, so thought, flip it around and kind of assimilate all the information you've gathered from all your guests that asked you some questions. But before we get started, can you give us kind of a, a history, which I know some of it since we used to work together, but if you gave, uh, the elevator pitch of your history, that would be awesome.

Terri Zipper (00:00:50 -> 00:01:38)

Sure, yeah. So I cut my teeth in tech and more specifically around financials, and somehow managed to land a job in payroll where I ended up implementing a new HRES payroll system. And as a result of that background, I got, uh, I, I got hired at Mercer and spent about 20 years there doing tech, HR comp consulting where I met you. And when I got tired of working for somebody else, I decided to work for myself. And that's when I met and reconnected with Susan Richards and a little bit later, Stacy Harris. And we formed Sapient Insights Group. So that's how I got here.

Sean Luitjens (00:01:39 -> 00:01:43)

Wow, okay. I didn't realize it was 20 years at Mercer. Um,

Terri Zipper (00:01:45 -> 00:01:45)


Sean Luitjens (00:01:45 -> 00:01:46)

That's a while.

Terri Zipper (00:01:46 -> 00:01:47)

It was a while.

Sean Luitjens (00:01:47 -> 00:01:52)

<laugh>. It was a while. And what do you, so what do you do for fun when you're not, uh, running Sapient?

Terri Zipper (00:01:54 -> 00:02:18)

Well, I love to bike, so I spend a lot of time on my bike. And we've got some nice parks close by, you're probably familiar with some of them, as I know you used to live here. And, um, there, so there's some great places to bike and it'll do a little bit of hiking there too. They've got some, some nice areas. Um, and then reading, I like to read. Um, other than that, I'm not doing a whole lot of exciting stuff.

Sean Luitjens (00:02:19 -> 00:02:25)

So the all-important question when we talk about reading, are you real book or, or Kindle?

Terri Zipper (00:02:26 -> 00:02:37)

Oh, Kindle. Yeah. I, I mean, I, you know, it's hard to carry around a book. I, I love books, but yeah, I, I read everything online.

Sean Luitjens (00:02:38 -> 00:02:47)

I'm still, I'm 50 50. I'm still, I'm still, I started to transition over and then I kind of all the way to Kindle then I kind of came back to, uh, to some of the books, so

Terri Zipper (00:02:47 -> 00:02:47)

Oh, really?

Sean Luitjens (00:02:47 -> 00:02:51)

Cover book? Yeah. Kind of. I can't quite convert all the way.

Terri Zipper (00:02:52 -> 00:03:00)

Yeah, I got a lot of books around here, but usually when I start reading one, I'm like, okay, let me just see if it's available on Kendall. So, so I can take it with me everywhere I go.

Sean Luitjens (00:03:01 -> 00:03:15)

Well, I've got a series of questions, but first we get there, how did you end up starting podcasting? So you got over to Sapient, you got that stuff going, and then all of a sudden you're podcasting and you and Stacy are podcasting, you know, every other week, every week.

Terri Zipper (00:03:16 -> 00:05:11)

Yeah. So I will say I was kind of guilted into it. Um, <laugh> it was not something I actually wanted to do. Um, but we had started it, uh, and somebody else was leading it at the time. There was two, there was sort of spilling the tea on HR Tech, which is the one Stacey does. And Stacey's got a background in, uh, TV and radio, so, you know, this is like old hat to her. And so she was really focused on just doing kind of the, what's happening in the world of, um, HR technology and sort of what's the, what's the news of the day. So hers is very topical and she likes to make sure that hers, you know, go out every other week. 'cause that's when things are happening, that's when the news is happening.

Mine on the other hand, um, it's called HR, We Have a Problem. And like I said, um, somebody else had been hosting it and we had kind of let it sit for the summer. And, um, when this person left, it was like, well, Teri, you need to pick up the podcast. And I was like, oh, yeah, no, I don't think so. Um, but I, you know, I looked at the stats, I looked at the listeners and I, we had a following and I thought, okay, how hard can this be? Like, let me, let me just try it with a few people. You were one of my early, um, people that I had on the show. 'cause I thought, you know, if I screw this up with somebody I know it won't be so bad. Um, and I liked it. I actually enjoyed doing it and, you know, felt like I got some information. I gave some information, and, um, and I just kept it going. So I haven't really looked back after that. Um, it, it's a lot of fun and people, you know, people like doing it. And I think our listenership has grown, um, tremendously. So, yeah, I'm really excited about that.

Sean Luitjens (00:05:12 -> 00:05:16)

How long is that? A year and a half now, if I'm trying to remember correctly.

Terri Zipper (00:05:17 -> 00:05:22)

I actually started last December. Okay, so it's been a year. Year. Yeah, I made it a whole year.

Sean Luitjens (00:05:23 -> 00:05:28)

Okay. Um, that, that's, that's a lot. That's a lot. <laugh>, 26 plus episodes.

Terri Zipper (00:05:29 -> 00:05:31)

Yeah. Yeah. So,

Sean Luitjens (00:05:31 -> 00:05:46)

So taking that in mind, so we've broken into a couple questions. So I wanted to pick your brain. Basically, if you look back at the last 12, 18 months, um, what, um, outside of AI, what is the biggest change you've seen in the past 12 or 18 months?

Terri Zipper (00:05:47 -> 00:05:52)

Yeah. Did anybody talk about anything other than AI last year? Huh?

Sean Luitjens (00:05:52 -> 00:05:56)

I know. Well, that's why I'm trying to pick it out because it's been all AI.

Terri Zipper (00:05:56 -> 00:08:09)

Yeah, no, it really has. And I think, you know, there's not really one thing. I don't think every, everything always seems to tie back to technology and being more digital and, you know, that's great. I mean, we've all seen the benefits of having tech automate and streamline the work we do and, you know, help us put our, our business in the cloud.

But, you know, one of the things that we've been focusing on a little more is what about the people? Um, we've had some pretty big changes in the world over the last couple years. I've started to see a shift in the focus on people and the organizational culture and, you know, HRMS has longed for doing things in their technology that would drive culture. But, you know, it's almost like the, the other side of the coin when you think about AI, right? Because, you know, a, people are concerned that AI is gonna, uh, replace their jobs and those types of things, but at the same time, we don't believe that. And, you know, where are we going to derive that culture from? Um, you know, is that gonna be internal? Is it gonna be driven by us or is that gonna be driven by the technology? Like, you know, we, something we really need to think about.

And, you know, I'm seeing a lot more work in the engagement area. Um, and also around, you know, just, um, you know, leadership development, coaching, team building, and just overall focus on like, what is your culture and how is that going to help you build your business? And what's the impact of your culture gonna be on the technology and AI instead of the other way around? Because I don't think any of us want, uh, that to be driven by, um, by the AI. In fact, that's, I think the thing people are most concerned about is, you know, um, uh, what, what exactly AI is going to do to their business and how is it going to impact their culture? And is it going to become sentient and take over the world? Um, but <laugh>

Sean Luitjens (00:08:10 -> 00:08:12)

Nice reference, by the way. Yeah.

Terri Zipper (00:08:12 -> 00:08:16)

So I guess, hey, we've all seen Terminator, right? I know. I

Sean Luitjens (00:08:16 -> 00:09:16)

Mean, that's, yeah, that's a nice retro reference. <laugh>. So do you think though, you've gone from, I mean, when you talk about culture to me, a couple things come up. You went from, you know, COVID, and as someone who's worked remote for 20 years, I, I found it very unique. The whole, everyone had to go remote and what a shift that was. 'cause I've been remote. Yeah. And was the outlier to being the norm. How do you think companies have been able to tackle this kind of culture issue when you've gone from everyone in the office to everyone to remote, to now all these hybrid different modes and modalities, and how do they drive culture?

And I guess the second part, you can answer it any way you want, would be, you know, how do you measure success of that culture? Because there's talking about culture, right? And everyone, nobody, at least to my sense when I've looked online, no one has said, we have a crappy culture. Come, come work here. Yeah. Everyone says, we've got a great culture and everything's great. Um, how do you measure where you're, whether you're actually being able to, you know, move that culture down? What do you measure analytically?

Terri Zipper (00:09:16 -> 00:12:43)

Yeah. Yeah. So I think, you know, the, um, ultimately the way you measure it is, uh, through the people. And you can look at this through other analytics and statistics from the organization and, you know, our people leaving, um, the organization more quickly than you would anticipate. I mean, you're not gonna read it in your job description, right? Because the job description is basically gonna say, we're a great place to work. Um, and we've won an award for it and so on and so forth. So, you know, a lot of this is gonna be, um, you know, more coming from the people who work there. Uh, Glassdoor is a great example of, you know, uh, take it with a grain of salt. But I mean, there's some good information out there, um, around what's really happening in these businesses. And I think people are relying on that kind of information to, to figure that out.

Um, but I, I, you know, I think if you think about, um, the, the way that an organization operates and the whole, uh, remote work issue, uh, people are bringing people back to the office. It's, it's not a hundred percent. I don't think it's ever gonna be a hundred percent. I think people are gonna work generally more remotely than, than anything else, especially in the staff functions, obviously. Um, you know, there, there's work to be done that has to be done in an operation and, you know, that's gonna be a very different place. So, you know, it is, I think, a different environment for people that are in those staff functions who can work remotely and don't need to be in an office. And I think, you know, organizations from an HR perspective need to think about how are they going to, um, you know, align new people coming into the business, to their culture, especially the, the younger generation who don't have an opportunity to, you know, sit in an office and learn from somebody next to somebody, go to lunch, you know, once or twice a week and, and learn some things that they wouldn't normally, um, learn or understand kind of the dynamics of the organization. Um, it's, it's very, very different.

And I think it's putting a tax on not just HR, but the managers to sort of figure out how am I going to approach managing new people in this organization and working with them via Zoom, right? Or, or teams or the, this online presence. How do I make this accessible to them? How do I, you know, um, know what's going on in their world? 'cause because I don't see them down the hall, I don't see them at the water cooler. And so I think that's, you know, yes, you know, people are gonna do employee engagement surveys and, you know, get all sorts of data back from that. But at, at the end of the day, you've really gotta be in touch with people and know what's going on in their world. And I think that's, to me that it, it's going to take a little bit different set of skills that, um, you know, that we really need to look at and make sure that, you know, the people that we're putting in these, these leadership positions have the right skills to bring people along and to bring them into the culture and make sure that they're focused on the same, you know, uh, objectives we are.

Sean Luitjens (00:12:44 -> 00:13:42)

It's interesting because I think you can now measure, um, you know, obviously we think, so hope we, you know, you're able to measure turnover for remote people in the office, people turnover by gender, how long in each position. Um, you can get your arms around those numbers now, which is something new, right? So you've got people analytics to look at that. But then the second problem part of it is, well, how do I actually solve the problem? The analytics will solve the problem. They highlight the problem for you and show your success or your ability to create change. And do they have the willingness to do that?

Because I think in the past before the analytics, you could go with the ostrich method, um, put your head in the sand and kind of do some anecdotal things, or it could say, glassdoor is not great, or whatever it was, right? But now there's hard data to say, you know, these things are different and how do I affect change? Yeah. It is interesting. It's the human and human resources. I think I've heard some people say it's kind of gone from human to technology and now it's, it's kind of the pendulum swinging back a little bit to being more human and human resources.

Terri Zipper (00:13:42 -> 00:14:51)

Yeah. I, I mean, you've, you've gotta have that. And I think, you know, it's interesting what some of the things that we saw in the data. Um, you know, 54% of HR tech professionals right now have less than three years of experience. And I doubt that that number is all that different when you look at some of the other areas in the business. And so, you know, organizations are not only losing a lot of institutional knowledge, but they're also, to some extent, their culture's evolving, right? As, as the, um, people leave the business and new people come into the business. And, um, you know, I'm not, uh, a, a big, um, proponent of the, um, uh, you know, the what group you're in, right? What are you a boomer or are you a Gen X or millennial, whatever. And there you know, clearly there's some nuances, but, um, there really is sort of a different, um, group of people coming into the business and, and a bigger group of people leaving the business and changing those dynamics.

Sean Luitjens (00:14:52 -> 00:15:02)

That's, that's really interesting. We won't talk about what, um, what software we were slinging and what we were writing in, uh, when we were in the three years and under <laugh>. Um,

Terri Zipper (00:15:02 -> 00:15:08)

Yeah, I, I don't know about Yeah, I remember the dot prompt. So I'm, this is going like way back

Sean Luitjens (00:15:08 -> 00:15:30)

Boss for APL L or 4,000,000,000,077. We'll go way back. Yeah, yeah. We don't wanna, we don't wanna mention any more of that. Yeah. So if we pivot from that's what you saw the biggest change in last year, how do you, as we move into kind of the next 12, 18 months, not nothing happens overnight. Yeah. Do you think that's trend is gonna continue? Or do you see something else popping up, you know, yeah. It's important over the next year. Plus,

Terri Zipper (00:15:31 -> 00:17:15)

I do think that trend is continuing. And I, the other thing that I've seen is a, it's really hot topic right now. Um, I don't know if you're seeing the same thing, but, you know, um, skills. So whether it's, um, you know, directly or indirectly, there's, there seems to be a heavy focus on this right now. And I think it's a little bit, um, part of this sort of revival of performance management, not that we're going back to the, it's always the, the pendulum is always there, right? Well, we're always swinging back and forth and, you know, we, we thought, hey, a lot of people just got rid of performance management, right? Um, altogether, like, let's just do away with it. And we've said, yeah, no, we can't really do that. Like, we, we really gotta figure out if people have the ability to do the jobs that we're hiring them to do.

So I think there's a lot more focus on skills and people are looking for help with sort of, how do, how do we lay this out? How do we figure this out? And I don't wanna go back to the, you know, competency-based process 'cause that's arduous and, and complex. But how do I focus on skills and not just on an individual CV so that I can find the best person for the job, not just somebody who's had the right title. Right? Um, so I think that's gonna be another, you know, big area over the next 12 months. And, you know, you combine that with, um, the changing culture. 'cause I do think there's a part of that skill, those behavioral skills that are going to help me, um, not just bring new people into the organization, but evolve the, the culture of the business and hopefully, you know, innovate some things. Um,

Sean Luitjens (00:17:15 -> 00:17:46)

Well, I think that's gonna be driven and your opinion that performance management and the skills, the pay equity, pay transparency issue, right? Yeah. Is driving at that because otherwise everyone in the same role theoretically needs to make the same money. So, but it's actually equitable pay for equitable work, right? Right. And so how do you start to create, well, what's equitable work if people have different skills, experience, different performance levels? And so it's helping swing that pendulum back, I think, on the pay equity side, especially with where the EU is right now.

Terri Zipper (00:17:47 -> 00:19:19)

Yeah. Yeah. No doubt. Um, and, you know, uh, in addition to that, I think, uh, partly compensation, but I'd, I'd like to see more emphasis on, and I'm not saying I I'm seeing it, but I'd like to see more emphasis on financial wellness, um, because I think, you know, there's been a lot of support for, um, you know, mental health and, and, and just general wellness. But I, I see a lot of people retiring right now, or thinking about retiring and leaving the workforce who don't really understand what they've got from a financial perspective.

And I, you know, I, I know that's changing, uh, for people coming into the organization, but is it, I mean, are people getting more engaged? Do they really know more about what their options are when they get into an organization and how to save for their future? Um, I, that's just an area that, uh, you know, I personally struggled with, and I was just talking to my, um, brother the other day who didn't even know that he had, he's, he's about to retire, didn't even know that he had a pension. Like he, he knew he had a 401k Yeah. Didn't know he had a pension. He's like, oh, well then I don't need to worry about my 401k right now. But, you know, I, and people don't, when you're young, you're, you're 25 years old coming into an organization. That's just not the stuff that you're focused on, right. You're focused on today. But when you think about

Sean Luitjens (00:19:19 -> 00:19:57)

Teri, think about though, I always think that dichotomy of this is, if the average tenure at a company right, is moving down over the years, right? Yeah. So you've got a more transient workforce that's happening. You've got mental wellness, which is kind of a now thing. And let's be honest, financial wellness is a, you know, can be a now thing, but it's a long term thing. How much does a company invest being devil's advocate? Yeah. And, and how do you do that? At what stage? And how do you place value on that? Because to your point, not every employee is gonna value, which I guess gets into the whole, you know, personalized total reward space. Yeah. But, you know, how does everybody value that the same? Yeah.

Terri Zipper (00:19:58 -> 00:20:35)

I, I'd like to see some innovation there. 'cause I, I do think there could be, and I don't have the answers if I did, I I'd go do it and, uh, you know, reap my rewards. But, um, you know, I think there, there's an opportunity there. And when you think about all the money that we're spending to bring people into the organization, the goal is still to, to get people to stay longer. Like not to have people turning over every one to three years, um, right. When you get good people into the jobs and they're delivering, um, that, that's, you know, that's still a goal even if we're not achieving it.

Sean Luitjens (00:20:36 -> 00:21:40)

It's interesting that one particular goal, which would be a sidebar I still find interesting because TA right, is not always aligned with the business. And so if you're in talent acquisition, what are you paid on? Your, your metrics are generally time to fill number of recs filled. Mm-Hmm. et cetera, et cetera, right? Yeah. They don't go back and offer a bonus for a number of employees that reach three years. They don't reach kind of an interesting thing.

So to me, there's always been this interesting disconnect between talent acquisition and then how do you perpetuate turnover, right? And to be honest, there's generally TA solving a now problem, right? A manager's got a right now problem, not a hire me somebody for three years down the road problem. So I think it is interesting that those two need to be tied together over time, and how do you measure, how do you measure that analytically Yeah. From the time they start to whatever to show success and, and put those trends back into the TA process. Yeah. Which sounds great on paper. I understand it sounds very MBA, like, sounds great on paper, but it sounds ridiculously hard, at least in my mind to put into practice. Yeah.

Terri Zipper (00:21:40 -> 00:22:43)

Yeah. It, but it, it goes back to, you know, being able to tie the people analytics to the business analytics and the business goals, right? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And so, you know, does, does the CEO care that, you know, it took you, um, you know, two months to hire somebody into this critical role? No, what they care about is what you lost in the process? Like what, you know, what, what, what did we lose during that two months while we didn't have somebody in this critical role?

Um, and so, you know, I, there there's a big cost, as we all know to, and I know this is not a conversation about TA and that's not a space that I, I play in all the time, but, um, I, I'm working with some people right now, and the turnover and onboarding are significant costs, right? And so they're, they're trying to figure out how do we, how do we fix this problem? And yeah, there, there's always new and innovative solutions. That's, that's how we keep the wheel turning at, at, um, HR tech, right?

Sean Luitjens (00:22:43 -> 00:23:00)

That's true. That's true. Somebody's always thinking it through. Yeah. Well, if we've been to the last well, not the last question, but the second to last question, with all that stuff going on, if you could solve one HR issue, so I'm curious, what, what would be the, the issue? What would it be?

Terri Zipper (00:23:00 -> 00:25:09)

Yeah, that's a hard one. You know, HR has a lot of, uh, issues and, you know, unfortunately HR gets blamed for a lot of stuff, which is really unfortunate because, you know, a lot of times, um, you know, these are not HR issues, like, like the example of, you know, getting people back to work, back to the office and things like that. I think a lot of people looked at that and said, well, that's HR's problem. I

t's not an HR problem, right? I mean, this is a, an organization problem and, and the executive leadership problem and a manager problem, it's not an HR problem. So, you know, I think HR plays a critical role in helping the business acquire, educate, retain talent. Um, they do a ton of things that just basically go unnoticed, right? Unless something goes wrong, my, my paycheck goes wrong, or Yeah. You know, my benefits didn't get done right.

Or I don't have access to the tools I need to do the things I need to do. Um, and I think, you know, what I'd like to see is, you know, better alignment and better partnership at the, at the leadership level. Like how do we own these, these challenges from an HR perspective and, you know, help the business solve them? Because, you know, the other thing is that, you know, they're, the people are a significant part of the business. And without people, and without the right people, we can't deliver on the promises the business is making.

So I think there's a huge opportunity there for organizations to think about, how do I better partner with HR? Not this whole argument about "does HR have a seat at the table?" Um, you know, HR needs to be a business partner and people need to care about what HR is telling them. At the same time. I mean, HR needs to be able to tell them things that make sense to them, right? They need to be able to tell the story of how this is impacting the business. Not, you know, Hey, we can't hire people fast enough.

Sean Luitjens (00:25:11 -> 00:25:55)

No, I think that's fair. I think, um, you know, they, they definitely are the messenger, you know? Yeah. And many of those times in the operation go to work's a good one. I always talk about, uh, compensation being the other one, right. You know, somebody decides it's gonna be a 4% increase this year, and then everyone, every hiring manager throws HR under the bus that we couldn't give you more money. Right? Right, right. And again, were they at the, not at the table, but were they part of this strategic decision of, was it 4%? What, what happens? You know, could we save 1% more if we gave a half percent in the total cost and bring those numbers to the table? So that's, that is a good challenge, which I would probably some is, you know, how do you tie the HR problems to the business? Because really at the end of the day, you're right, the business partners care about the business, um, side of it. And how do you tie those two things together?

Terri Zipper (00:25:56 -> 00:27:28)

Yeah, I think HR, you know, when you go into HR, you need to think about, um, being a storyteller. 'cause that's gonna be a lot of, um, you know, what you need to do. 'cause that's what people listen to, right? They wanna hear stories, they wanna understand it, they wanna relate to it. And, you know, I was, I was laughing a little bit ago, I was looking at, um, one of my LinkedIn posts and I mean, I don't post a ton, right? But, um, I think my podcast had gotten posted and then I commented on something else that got posted, and then I posted a picture of me and some people at dinner and said, Hey, we were, you know, having a nice dinner and talking about these issues. Well, then I got this email from LinkedIn about my engagement.

Can, you can imagine what the numbers looked like, right? Like the engagement with the picture with the people in it, actually having a conversation and, and sort of doing something was off the charts. And then my other two posts were like, you know, ah, few people looked at it. Um, so I, I thought that was interesting, you know, and I think kind of, we know some of that intuitively 'cause we're social people, but it just really resonated with me when I saw the, the, the difference there. And it was about people, engaging people, seeing people, people being social and telling a story. 'cause we, we were, we were actually doing something, you know? Um, so that was interesting.

Sean Luitjens (00:27:29 -> 00:27:50)

Oh, that's very cool. I think the whole thing of, you know, not sending a pile of numbers somewhere. The analytics are great, but what story does it tell? And then how do you weave a solution is a story and then go back and see how the story ends, I guess. No, you know, it is important versus just the graph. Yeah. So as we kind of wrap up, do you have any final thoughts for, for folks as we head into 2024?

Terri Zipper (00:27:53 -> 00:29:01)

I would want to continue to sort of challenge HR and HR leaders to focus on a couple of things. Focus on value, focus on impact, and focus on outcomes. And I, you know, when you think about how you align what the business's goals, you, you can't make an impact if you don't know what the goals are. And I think a lot of times we, um, in HR get into keeping the, the lights on, keeping the process moving, keeping it oiled, right? And, and making those things happen. But the business has a set of goals. And I think, you know, we as HR and HR leaders need to be in tune with those goals and make sure that we can actually produce some outcomes, um, associated with that. So I think, you know, I, I'd like to continue to sort of challenge people to do that. 'cause I think it will help us, um, become more focused on business results and less focused on sort of those tedious HR-related tasks.

Sean Luitjens (00:29:03 -> 00:29:10)

Oh, that's a great way to end. I really appreciate it. Thanks for taking the time. As good. Yeah, as always, great to catch up.

Terri Zipper (00:29:10 -> 00:29:14)

Yeah, thanks for having me. I enjoyed it. This is always fun. Right.

Sean Luitjens (00:29:14 -> 00:29:14)


Terri Zipper (00:29:14 -> 00:29:16)

Thanks, Sean.

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