Totally Rewarding Chats | Ep. 02: Is Talent Acquisition Getting the Most Out of People Analytics?

What's next for recruiting practices, upskilling, and internal mobility?

In this episode, Sean and Gerry explore the evolving landscape of talent acquisition, including how leaders are rethinking internal movement, the importance of strategic workforce planning, and the value of leveraging data-driven insights to improve hiring outcomes.

In this episode:

• Host, Sean Luitjens, General Manager of Compensation Benchmarks, Visier

• Guest, Gerry Crispin, Principal & Founder, CareerXroads

More on data-driven talent acquisition

• The Big Book of People Analytics: Talent Acquisition

• Strategic Talent Acquisition: Key Principles and Best Practices

• Internal Mobility: A Strategic Guide for HR Leaders

Episode transcript:

​​Sean Luitjens (00:00:07 - 00:00:47)

All right, here we go. We are off to the second of our series of interviews where we take some time and interview a couple of the most knowledgeable and experienced industry experts. You can smile and laugh there, Gerry, but I'm gonna put you in that, that bucket, um, and get their opinions on the past year. And I'm gonna expand that out with Gerry, actually. So the past couple of years, uh, or more, um, and what 2024 might look like.

My name's ​​Sean Luitjens. I'm the general manager of the Total Rewards Program over at Visier, and I am super stoked to, um, bring us Gerry Crispin, founder of Career Xroads, and, um, really just a wealth of knowledge of the TA space over the years. Welcome.

Gerry Crispin (00:00:48 - 00:00:50)

Cool. Thank you. It's a pleasure to be here.

Sean Luitjens (00:00:51 - 00:01:01)

So, um, you know, it's, it's a longer career. Can you give us the elevator pitch, maybe a four or five-story elevator pitch <laugh> of, of your background, so that gives us a little context?

Gerry Crispin (00:01:02 - 00:03:29)

Yeah, I think, um, I think the elevator pitch really is that I'm a lifelong student of recruiting. I've been doing something that related to recruiting, whether we career services or working for large companies like Johnson and Johnson or, uh, working in recruitment advertising, uh, or in my own company, uh, for over 50 years, literally. Um, and, and I love it. I mean, you know, me <laugh> I'm fascinated by several different issues in terms of how we embrace and change technology and change what we do relative to technology or, or are we just using it to do badly what we do faster and more, more cheaply, you know?

And so there's these issues that constantly come up. And I love the fact that, you know, we've, we've taken, uh, our craft, if you will, hopefully someday a profession, um, into, into a, a new world, 21st century. And, you know, uh, 20 years ago we were concerned about what the internet would do, and today we were scared shitless about AI and, uh, it's, and what it's going to do. So, uh, I love it, and I love being in a position where I can enjoy and, um, and not necessarily have to do a lot of the heavy lifting.

My company Career Xroads is about a hundred, uh, employers, usually very, very large employers, and the recruiters who are hiring, uh, and recruiting leaders who are hiring for those companies, their companies. So it's not really a staffing third-party staffing as part of it, and, and not many vendors. Um, the vendors are not really part of, uh, this community. Um, we have a separate community for a few of the vendors, but, but I'm, I'm just fascinated by how we are slowly shifting our view of who is the stakeholder in recruiting and, and how, how well are we collectively looking at their needs and satisfying their needs.

Sean Luitjens (00:03:31 - 00:03:40)

So, before we jump into that, I like to ask people, what, what do you do outside of work? Because that's, um, yeah, I always find that, you know, interesting with people. Um, what do you do?

Gerry Crispin (00:03:41 - 00:04:57)

I do a lot of things. But I would, I would tell you, I'm not into sports. I play a little golf, I, whatever. What I am into is, is community. Um, I have a very large extended family, um, probably on my, and this is on my mother's side, 140 people who are related to me because I'm old enough that I had 19 first cousins. They all got married, had kids, their kids all got married and had kids. You know, we're in another generation of that. And, um, I now moved, I downsized from a, a fairly decent sized home in New Jersey to a, um, a cottage that was built in 1910 that's on a block with eight other homes owned by cousins or cousins kids on a hill overlooking a village, uh, in the North shore of Long Island. And so, uh, I wander around among relatives and engage around that, but, but community is my obsession. So, uh, the other side of that would be, I, I celebrated my 75th birthday at Burning Man.

Sean Luitjens (00:04:58 - 00:04:58)

Okay.

Gerry Crispin (00:04:58 - 00:05:32)

I think Burning Man is the largest field experiment of how community evolves over a 10, 12 day period in the world. And anybody who wants to understand how community operates and what, what, you know, what are the variables around that, that's the place to go study it because it's, it's a constant, uh, value-added approach. And it's only 10 days, it starts and

Sean Luitjens (00:05:33 - 00:06:17)

Finishes. You can learn a lot in 10 days. Yeah. Um, so it was interesting, you started by saying things, things have changed over time, and so it's interesting 'cause um, you and I are both old enough to have been there during the, um, the internet has gotta change everything. Yeah. It was unique for me because I was at Monster at the time when we were getting Monster going, and my dad was a headhunter. Was a recruiter, yeah.

And so I jokingly would say, um, uh, I'm gonna try to put you outta business. And I was younger then, and, um, my dad at the time said, well, you'll put the bad ones outta business, you'll, you'll make the good ones better. Right. Um, and, and what have you seen over time, you know, over the past 10 years in TA changing and how do, you mentioned the stakeholders. How do you see that changing from where it was in the past?

Gerry Crispin (00:06:18 - 00:08:23)

Well, you know, uh, it's, it certainly is evolving even as we speak. I mean, so we're, we're talking about the end of 2023, but if you think about it, the last couple years, uh, we've seen a lot of ups and downs just in the last two to three years, in part because of the pandemic, um, and, and the impact of coming out of the pandemic. So we've seen a kind of a, a major reduction then a, a great growth. And, and then, and now we're in another kind of, uh, interesting area where there's more people in our field of recruiting who are in transition than, uh, actually I've seen in my entire career. But I do believe that we're seeing a convergence of a lot of different technologies.

I would say that four or five years ago, the average, my average member was using 28 different technologies in order to have a system and a set of policies and practices that they wanted within the framework of their corporation. It's questionable as to whether or not the cost of that, um, and the time that it took to fill a position, um, you know, and the quality of that, uh, has, is any, any better than it was 20 or 30 years ago? You know, when I look at some of the studies that were done in the 1990s, uh, time to fill the cost per hire, um, uh, and, and varying measures of quality, were not a hell of a lot different than they are today. Uh, but I will say that the cost of the technology has certainly increased. And, um, I'm not so sure that an individual recruiter is able to handle any more positions, open positions than they were able to 20 years ago.

Sean Luitjens (00:08:25 - 00:09:36)

I think there's a couple things to unpack there. I think that the first one on the metrics is interesting. One of the things I've been baffled at, so, um, and we're talking about you, but I went from talent acquisition to comp and ben[efits] and people analytics, right? And the one thing coming from TA was there's not a great link between comp and ben[efits] and people analytics. And so when you talk about the analytics that are measured for talent acquisition people, right? It's time to fill, number of recs filled, et cetera, not a link back to the long-term effect of those hires, right? And so, right.

Theoretically, if you're a selfish recruiter, right, you want someone who's gonna stay a year, the recs can open again, and I can fill it again and fill it quickly because I'm measured on time to fill and recs fill. Yeah. I would also argue jokingly, you know, a a a recruiter with no openings is not a recruiter, um, <laugh>. And so you, you know, you've got these issues that are there and, and what do you think about that tie? Because there's so much data and analytics out there now, but there seems to be a bridge between there. And we'll talk a little bit about the, the how recruiters have to do with pay equity later, but the, those two bridges haven't been crossed yet.

Gerry Crispin (00:09:36 - 00:13:17)

No, they really haven't. Our ability to really understand what the ROI is for recruiting, so that we can at least compare different platforms, different modalities, if you will, different, uh, tools in the quiver or arrows in the quiver that we're using, I think, uh, is going to still wait for us to better understand how the, how the people that we hire impact performance of the organization. We trust that certain things do take place, but I'm, I'm seeing in the last two to three years, there's been a shift in how do we, how do we come up with better metrics relative to it? If you think about what the SEC did just a year and a half ago, I think it was a year and a half ago, when they basically said that as part of the quarterly reports that are financial about the corporation, they are bowing to investors who want more human resource related, uh, pieces of information, uh, uh, turnover issues, um, you know, et cetera.

So that, that we could have a better understanding of what the turnover of an industry might be, uh, to better understand which of the companies we should be investing in. And, and turnover is just one of many. It may be diverse, you know, how we need to understand better how diversity impacts in a positive or negative way. Um, the various companies that are out there in the industries that they're in, how leadership styles impact those kinds of things. So, so we're collecting better evidence, if you will, and I would sustain that in our function of recruiting. The missing link is, is a level of engagement of the, of the employee and to some degree that is impacted by the way in which we treat the candidates. <laugh> coming in, not just the ones we hire, but the ones, even the ones we don't go forward with. So we don't go forward with 90%, let's say, of all or 95% of all of the candidates that come through our system and are on that journey. What percentage of those 95 are in fact, current and future customers or competitors? Yeah.

And, and the extent to which, yes, they impact as well as the ones who get hired, um, does, do, they translate quickly into employees who are motivated or employees who are disturbed that what was promised isn't going to be received and are already beginning to look for something else. And if we understood a little bit more about that, we would have a better measure about the future performance of an organization based on the, of a kind of work that we do to, uh, to engage new candidates, both external and internal, uh, for jobs moving forward. And HR is behind, I think, in, in really doing a great job with that. I think there's, there's think good thinking and good tools out there to use, right? It's just they're, we're not stepping up enough to, to put that together and then sharing that on an industry-wide basis.

Sean Luitjens (00:13:18 - 00:13:41)

Do you think part of that is, is kind of the, what's measures, what's done? So, you know, piece of it, right? The analytics of ROI and turnover, et cetera. And if you know recruiters, and of course they'd have to stay for a while themselves, but, you know, recruiters or companies that are recruiting RPOs, if they were measured on turnover, um, it's an interesting thing, right? I think it's, you get the right person versus just the fastest person.

Gerry Crispin (00:13:42 - 00:14:56)

It's, it's bottom up and top down. And, and I think both have an impact. I do think there needs to be more, uh, training and confidence on the part of the folks coming into an organization and a willingness to step up to what they believe is the right way of pursuing the goals of the organization. And I do think that, uh, that from a top down point of view, more servant leadership is necessary. More leaders who are listening to their people and their clients, um, in a, in, as opposed to having, uh, more of a dominant, um, you know, this is what I want.

I want everybody to be here for four days or five days a week because I'm here five days a week. And so if I'm gonna be in, in an empty office, you gotta come to that office so that you fill it up. Um, that, that kind of attitude could work years ago. It can't work any longer. And so, and so I want to know those kinds of things that are happening or not happening in organizations. If I'm an investor and I'm buying stock,

Sean Luitjens (00:14:58 - 00:15:01)

Well, and I would argue if you're an employee, right? I think that's the piece for recruiters, right?

Gerry Crispin (00:15:02 - 00:15:03)

You know, you know

Sean Luitjens (00:15:03 - 00:15:10)

What the surprise when you show up, right? How different it is, you know, from the interview pro, from what you bought for what you, when you actually start using it. Um,

Gerry Crispin (00:15:11 - 00:15:35)

I wanna predict that increasing turnover is going to impact the performance of that organization, um, and, and in advance. And if I can predict that, uh, because of, of these kinds of factors which have nothing to do with EBITDA today, you know, that kind of thing. So, so fundamentally, I, I think we're moving in the right direction, but very slowly.

Sean Luitjens (00:15:36 - 00:15:46)

Okay. So if we move that up and just say, over the last year, what do you think has been the, uh, and we have to take AI out because I don't wanna have any of those on there. Um, AI

Gerry Crispin (00:15:46 - 00:19:08)

Is fully, uh, engaged in increasing the level of uncertainty. So it's not the only thing, but it's the latest thing that is concerning, um, everyone relative to what is its future impact on my job and or the jobs that I'm filling or whatever it might be. And to what degree do I need to hire people who are more aware of, of that and more capable of applying those kinds of things. Um, you wouldn't hire somebody today who, who you interviewed, who said, I don't, I don't really know much about the internet. I've never, I've never looked at, you know, linked. I, I don't even know what LinkedIn is. You know, would you, would you hire somebody as head of marketing or something like that, or head of engineering or head of whatever, you know. Um, and you can't, almost can't imagine someone, not someone saying that in today's day and age, how could you actually survive without the, well, you know, you can, you actually can.

And, and some of us wanna do a little less, uh, relative to it, but, but, but fundamentally, we're, we're going to have to be more conscious, I think, of extraneous things that we can defend that you need to know in order to be able to engage in a team set of team activities, um, in a knowledgeable way. Or you're gonna have to provide the training and development for that individual so that they will be on the same platform or at the same level of, of the team that they're dealing with. And, uh, both, and the investment in that is going to be a key issue, I think for, for the future. I do think we're rethinking, um, internal movement.

So to get beyond AI, uh, the last couple years we've, we've heard a significant effort on the part of companies to begin thinking a little bit better about the workforce planning that they need to think about and the impact that, that might have on jobs and how we might help our employees who might be doing a good job in one place, but that, that's becoming less of value to us as an emp as a company.

And rather than putting them into transition, um, what, what can we do to add to their skills, knowledge, and experience that would allow them to move effectively into performing well in another place that that's needed. And, um, I'm convinced that that's going to increasingly be important and it so that we, we really focus in on the quality, um, of the, of the skills, knowledge and experience that we need in order to move forward in these in these jobs.

Sean Luitjens (00:19:09 - 00:19:11)

How do you think companies tackle that issue?

Gerry Crispin (00:19:12 - 00:19:12)

Poorly, I mean.

Sean Luitjens (00:19:13 - 00:19:13)

Huh?

Gerry Crispin (00:19:14 - 00:19:15)

<laugh> very poorly.

Sean Luitjens (00:19:15 - 00:19:21)

Yeah. Well, I meant going forward, but that, that's a good summary of the current <laugh>.

Gerry Crispin (00:19:21 - 00:24:29)

Well, you know, um, the tools and knowledge are out there to do a good job. The question is, are we investing in the people who have learned the skills and knowledge of how you would think about, um, the people that we have? How many are retiring? How many are, you know, uh, you know, how could we use somebody in a fractional way while as they approach retirement? So that, so that we're still, uh, keep getting use out of them, um, but not giving, pushing them to, to jump the cliff, uh, as soon as, as soon as they have the ability to do it.

Um, we, we need to, we, we need to have the kind of assessments or self-assessments within organizations and coaching on, on how to best find yourself here, be more successful, et cetera. That's independent of the hiring manager. You know, I, I, one of, one of the things I remember, uh, doing a number of years ago was I had a panel of kids who had graduated and worked for a company for a year. So they, they had some experience, but not a hell of a lot. Yeah. And were considered the best hire we made from, in, in early career from either from college or from whatever their learning was.

I asked about 10 companies to give me the best kid that they had hired in the previous year. And, uh, at first they said, what are you gonna do with them? I said, I'm gonna put 'em on a panel in front of about 600 recruiters and ask them some dumb questions. Yeah. And they said, why would I give you the best, the best employee I have, um, to sit in front of 600 recruiters? I'm gonna, I'm gonna potentially lose them. And I said, well, if you lose them, it's, that's, that suggests you have other problems. Yeah. I said, that's not my problem. My, your problem is, you know, that that's one of the best people you've hired in the last year at that, at that level. Um, you, you should be working on doing that.

Anyhow, when, when I had them together, I asked them what two, two questions that were relevant. One was, what is it that you know now that that makes you feel you made the right choice in coming to this company? And every one of them, in one way or another, said, I have a mentor. I found that fascinating. 'cause it, it never occurred to me that I quote, needed a mentor when I, you know, graduated from school after, you know, five or six years of graduate school, I went and found people. I mean, I was obnoxious. So I would, I would, you know, call people up who didn't know me and say, I need to know you more because I need to pick your brain. Yeah. So I could do a better job. And they go, okay, <laugh>, no problem.

Um, but, but to, in today's world, we need to institutionalize it so that it becomes, it becomes okay, if you will, to do this. 'cause they hadn't thought about it, but the mentor was helping them, um, you know, find their way in large corporations because they didn't do a lot of, um, of work as, as, um, teenagers and, and as they were in school, maybe a little bit of internship. But that was about it. And it was usually very focused. And then I asked them, in three years or two years, when you've, you've been here three years, what will keep you at this company? And again, almost all of them said a coach. So what's the difference between the mentor and the coach and the, and the mentor helps them be successful where they are.

The coach helps them make choices about where they could go, um, and, and what's possible for them next. And some of those possibilities might not be in the same company. And so that's the kind of thinking, uh, that's out there. And it's part of what, if we're doing stuff like that, we're, we're now building, um, a whole different approach, uh, to how we think about, uh, workforce, you know, the workforce we have, the workforce we're going to need. Um, and, and that kind of attention, I think is going to be powerful.

Sean Luitjens (00:24:30 - 00:24:42)

How do you, how do you measure that? Do you change the analytics that are measured? How do you institutionalize it? How do you measure it? I mean, you know, 'cause again, back to, in my mind, you know, what's, what's measured, what's done, right? Uh, I think in, in general,

Gerry Crispin (00:24:43 - 00:26:35)

That gets, that, that's a segue to an issue that, that I, I think is, um, is a problem for us. We don't, each company that does something seldom shares right. You know, in, in either in real-time. I mean, maybe years later we see a case study or something like that. But, but they, the data they're collecting is not sufficient for us to understand whether this would work, this practice or policy or approach will work. Um, we really need, um, the, the transparency of a number of companies in a given industry to, to deal with some of the policy, some of those practices and the data that's out coming out of that into, uh, into some kind of research, um, or, or the vendor who's helping them collect that data most, you know, and the platform that they happen to commonly beyond, um, doing that research and then sharing that publicly.

That's, and that's, and I say that sharing that publicly, I could say that again, uh, because most of those companies, again, if they're collecting that data, the data is analyzed, researched, and internally used, uh, to gain more clients. But <laugh>, but then we as a profession or as an industry, don't benefit to elevate all boats, if you will. Yeah. Because of fear of competition. Look fair.

Sean Luitjens (00:26:36 - 00:26:48)

Um, segueing a little bit from the past to the future. Yeah. So what's the, uh, you know, what do you think as companies move to the next 12 months, you know, well, what do you think are the big things that they need to be looking at or what's coming?

Gerry Crispin (00:26:49 - 00:26:56)

Well, yeah, and I'll tell you exactly what I think will happen, but <laugh>

Sean Luitjens (00:26:56 - 00:26:58)

It means we have to talk in 12 months. So,

Gerry Crispin (00:26:58 - 00:37:08)

Yeah, no, we, well, yeah. Uh, or because it's gotta be slow. Nothing happens in 12 months. But, but I mean, something does happen, but the point is, it happens in, um, in very specific places and cases. And, and that tells you that there's a trend starting that may move us in a different direction. I remember in the nineties talking about the importance of candidate experience being, being one that we have to take a look at and really understand what are the variables that impact how a candidate perceives the journey when they are applying to a company for a job and its impact long term? And I had, people would tell me, uh, in the nineties, you're, you're nuts. No one's going to invest in that. Uh, we don't give a shit. And, and, and there's an infinite number of candidates that can do this job.

And so, you know, being nice to the people that we don't go forward with is, that would be nice, but there's no ROI for that there, I think a lot of companies today. Um, but, but maybe in the, in the 50%, 40, 50% range, I believe that candidate, that understanding what the experience of your candidates have, um, is important for how they improve, uh, the capabilities that they have to recruit and that it has, uh, an impact on brand, has an impact, et cetera, et cetera. So in 20-some-odd years, 25 years, let's say, there's a shift in thinking. And I do think it's, it's gonna be the same thing for what I'm about to say. And that is that we should be able today to change the top of the funnel in kind, not just, not just efficiency.

Efficiency would be that we more quickly and cheaply are able to take a, let's say a hundred people who have applied and figure out which are the most likely candidates that we would, we should go forward with. Um, and then speed up the interview process, the, and so on and so forth, that kind of thing. Instead, I believe in kind, change in kind would be to tell all a hundred people as they're looking at the job, as they're looking at the job that I see you, <laugh>, I see you looking at this job. You spent 15 minutes, um, reading several different, uh, jobs in finance. Uh, so you're obviously interested in our company and you've seen a few pages. How can I help you decide whether or not you actually want to apply? Right? Um, and, and by the way, here are some ideas that you may not have thought about. Um, I know, I know the, the type of personalities that we have that you would be working for.

So depending upon the job that you're looking at, I could tell you a little bit about how that person would lead the team that you would be part of. And I can tell you about the different roles that people have in that team and what they're kind of looking for from a team perspective as opposed to the job perspective. I can tell you more about the culture of our company and the opportunity to develop and, and move into other jobs. And I can give you data about who has been in those jobs and where they are now. Does any of that interest you? Do you, is any of that, uh, a value for you, uh, in terms of making a decision to go forward? And by the way, if you decide to go forward with us, you don't have to fill out anything. In fact, we don't want you to fill out, because we know that you'd go to chat GPT and have your, um, have your resume redone to fit the job description. So we're not really interested in that at this, at this time.

What will happen is you just have to click one button that says, I am interested in this job. And, and then you will be moved to a schedule where in the next 96 hours you can pick any time that you want. And, and we will interview you and we'll interview every single candidate who applies within the next 96 hours and at their convenience. And everyone will be asked the same questions. And I will conduct the interview. And by the way, I'm not human, but, but I will conduct the interview and that interview will ask the same questions of everyone. But obviously, depending upon how you respond to that question, I might probe differently for different candidates in order to better understand things like what your role was in that project, or, you know, whether or not you led the project or, you know, et cetera.

So if you're prepared, um, you should do fine, uh, with, with respect to that. So do your due diligence and then indicate whether or not you would be interested if you Yeah. If at all. Um, and now what you have, yeah. Is the ability to take care of the top of the funnel in a way that every single person gets up to bat. Every single person, I believe, would perceive that part of the journey as more fair than the arbitrary way in which other tools would exclude them from going forward without them ever learning anything. And if I, if I can interview people in a consistent way and collect data in a consistent way, I'm now in a defensible position to potentially give feedback again with an automation, um, to those candidates that we don't go forward with at a very low cost because it's not being done by humans.

Now, I believe candidates would prefer this approach by a large margin. I think the quality of the data collected will much more defensible and, and long term, more able to predict that the success of that, uh, is, is beneficial to the corporation. Uh, because otherwise you're dealing with the collection of random data, random decisions, et cetera. And I think the decision on the part of the candidate that they will do the job, 'cause the employers decided they can do it, um, will be better. And so between those two decisions, again, the quality of what we bring in will impact better the bottom line of the organization. Now, <laugh>, in 12 months, I believe a dozen companies will attempt something simple like that.

There are at least 15 corporations that I, I've interviewed that have the tools to do this in at least a primitive way. Um, so that's only gonna get better. The nuance is gonna be years away of somebody who is as good as I think I am <laugh> at doing what I just described. Uh, and of course, I would never be able to interview 120 people in 96 hours. So, so it's, it's, it cha it would think about how that changes the role of a recruiter to this next level of what comes out of this. How do I audit that data in a way that confirms that, that we, we should move forward with these, not move forward with these, offer feedback at this level, et cetera, et cetera. And then, and then engage again.

Where does the, where do the humans, you know, have the best value in terms of counseling? Not only the individuals that we go forward with, but the hiring managers and or, and or others who are going to make decisions for the business about who should come in. And, and personally, I would get rid of <laugh>. So I'll say one other thing that I think will happen eventually, there will be a strong enough upskilled group of people responsible for recruiting and, and helping being helped with panelists and so on, that we, we will not be making, allowing the hiring manager to be involved in the not involved, to have control of the decision of hiring.

Sean Luitjens (00:37:10 - 00:38:04)

But I think actually on that, that's an interesting point. And I, I think one of the things with that, I know we've talked about that before. If, if the hiring manager through all the tools they have now through performance management and the skills and the things that make people successful in their department are documented, it's interesting in your process because that then fuels those analytics skills. That set of data then fuels the hiring process that you're talking about.

So if they actually take care and document what's successful, what's not successful, yeah. How long people are there, all these things that you talk about adding in the interview, an automated interview, they're getting to be part of the process by setting up the top of the funnel. So only people that come through. So there's less of a requirement for them. So if that loop is closed, I can buy into what you're, you know, what you're talking about, not having, you know, the hiring managers in there, right?

Gerry Crispin (00:38:04 - 00:39:07)

You'd have to be able to demonstrate that what we are doing is defensible for the business. Yeah. Assess long-term. And therefore the hiring manager wants to be a better manager for the people that we supply them. If we leave the hiring man, if we just give the tools to the hiring manager, if you will. Uh, the, long-term problem is that there are, I believe there are goals of a hiring manager that are not consistent with the business. I, I, I don't want somebody that I develop for someone else inside the organization, even though it's better for the business. Because, because I personally want to have my, the best people stay as long as they possibly can to make my goddamn job easier, even though I know that's wrong. Great. Uh, that's how I'm going to operate and that's how I'll choose. Um, well,

Sean Luitjens (00:39:07 - 00:39:51)

They're not, we see it in comp planning and have seen it in recruiting, right? I mean, you think about people who hire, right? In theory, if you get a, a very good recruiter and a good recruiting process, the volume, the sample size is high. You know, like anything rule of 10,000, whatever it is, sure you get better at it, right? A hiring manager, and we talk about a comp planning, a third of 'em are doing it for the first time. How good are they gonna be? Right? A third of managers, you know, someone who's just promoted to a manager's hiring, right? How good are they going to be at hiring? It takes practice and time. And of course, if you're good at managing, unless your company's growing, you know, exponentially, um, they don't leave. And so you, you fundamentally drive a process at which you're not getting practice hiring. I,

Gerry Crispin (00:39:51 - 00:41:54)

I love the outliers, for example. So one of the things that, um, I I love is about a company called Enterprise Matic Carbon is they primarily hire almost everyone into the same job, which is that they would be in an office, uh, renting cars and they would learn the business of that office over the course of let's say a year, year and a half, two years. And, and those that survive that and are successful then can choose to go into many different roles. Marketing, uh, finance a variety of other places, right? And, and one of those is recruiter. And so a recruiter who's hiring for enterprise is hiring for this specific job that they personally have done. And when they say to the head of the office, <laugh>, I don't need to give you 12 people to interview, I don't even need to give you three. I can give you two choices because I know from having done that job and from how I know you, uh, 'cause we work together, <laugh>, um, how I'm going to help you. And, and the hiring manager goes, yeah, sure. You, you know, you know this job, you understand what we need for success. You know what I need, uh, I trust you. Uh, and it, it's a different way of thinking about that from a human side. But, if we have the data, uh, as you point out, I think we can, can, we can defend real significant changes in time in kind that also impact the people we don't hire in a way that benefits not only our company long term. Um, but I think benefits our industry and our profession.

Sean Luitjens (00:41:55 - 00:42:18)

Well, as I've always said, you know, if you just treat humans like humans, actually it works out pretty well in the long term for the company. Agreed. Um, you know, sometimes human resources doesn't, and that's the interesting part. So the candidate experience, et cetera, is, um, it's a lot of people applying for a job, but on the other end, it's, it's a very personal thing that they've chosen to apply for a job and, you know, that's where they wanna go. It

Gerry Crispin (00:42:18 - 00:43:23)

Satisfies me that the work that I did as a recruiter and, and for many years, I was a recruiter at Johnson and Johnson. I did it for several years. And, and to be honest with you, I have, there are people who are retired, who are heads of companies that were hired out of school, <laugh>, right? Uh, by me. And I took the pride in, in, you know, hiring them, engaging them, and I continue to, to follow their careers. Um, it's, it's not possible to do that with everyone. But the fact of the matter is that's, we all wanna be proud of the, of our contribution, if you will, uh, to the roles that we're assigned, you know, or, or that we, we have. And, um, I don't think transactional jobs that don't involve us, you know, engaging others, um, are, are going to be that satisfying as a career.

Sean Luitjens (00:43:24 - 00:43:57)

No, I agree. I mean, no, that, that part I definitely agree with. Well, I know cognizant of time, this has been great. So I'm gonna check in with you in a year to see you got it. If we have 12 companies or something, um, doing that. And then, uh, of course I'm gonna want to go through the process, so be the nerd in me will want to go through the process to see what it's like, even though I'm not, you know, probably gonna go there. So, um, this has been great. Um, I appreciate it. Um, for everyone else, we'll have another one coming along and, um, obviously we will post information on how you can get in touch with, with Gerry. Thanks all.

Gerry Crispin (00:43:57 - 00:43:59)

Thank you.